CBT Training ( Need Advice )

[tonybbird]

Hi All
some of you will know me and my son David from the Flag & Whistle-stop (Earl's father in-law and we ride the Blue Black bird as you all know the blue ones are faster...LOL) and occasionally posting on here, 1st of all for all that do know us, David has passed his CBT and is now getting about on his CCM125SM,
Now for the point of this post, I would like some unbiased opinions please. (all banter accepted with suitable returns to be delivered)
David first went to CBT training with North-eastern Motorcycle training, I introduced myself first and advised them of David's disability ( had a brain haemorrhage ) and if they thought this would be a problem.
1st visit for David went reasonably well, a little difficulty with slow control etc due to his disability, (restricted movement on his right side and limited fine motor control of the right hand) and of course he had nil experience of riding a motor bike, but Martin the trainer on that occasion stated he had seen David make improvements and was confident he could be trained, but that it would take longer than usual (under the circumstances not an unreasonable statement) and I made it clear that if extra payment was required it was ok
2nd Visit was in my opinion a complete disaster, and very confidence damaging for David, it was with another trainer, apparently a senior and experienced trainer (their words not mine) This person put David on a different bike with a severely bent brake lever, (bear in mind David has right hand difficulties) and within 30 mins called a halt to David's training and stated he would never be able to do it, and he was unwilling to proceed (?? Disability Discrimination ??)
Suitable phone call to the owner of the business was made voiced my displeasure and arranged for David to return but back with the first trainer,
3rd visit again with Martin the day went reasonably well, I stayed and watched, David was clearly having difficulties but even I could see he was improving, end of the training Martin stated the same as I had observed but indicated that they could not continue with David as it would take too long to train him (wonder how this decision had come about) I suggested I get David his own bike and teach him the slow control myself and then bring him back, Martin agreed this would work.
Bike bought, slow control taught by me, total of 6 hours 2 x 3hr sessions on private property. and a video of the last session showing David's ability (and his slow control is now better than mine ever was)
Back to the trainers showed them the Video, booked David in again, was told we would have to pay a further £80, agreed not a problem. booked for the following Saturday, was asked to ring on the Friday to confirm as they were having problems with training area @ Billingham, I did so and training was cancelled pending a new training area getting approval, OK things happen.
Booked again for the following weekend this time booked with the boss, again asked to ring on Friday just to confirm location, rang on Friday was told David could not do it, as they had a rush on Thursday and were now fully booked, angry discussion followed with me telling the person on the phone that David's training had been booked since the beginning of the week so he should not be cancelled, reply was basically tough he would be able to do it on Thursday "maybe" and that was my only option, at that point I advised said person that I did have another option, and that was to take my money elsewhere, asked him to have the boss phone me when he was back in (yeah you have guessed it I'm still waiting that was over 4 weeks ago)
I then phoned Train To Ride @ Southbank and how I wish I had gone to them in the first place, from the first phone call they were totally professional "it does not matter what his disability is if he can ride, we will teach him to be safe, and get him through his CBT" They really are trainers, they want people to learn, be safe, and succeed.
David had two in centre training days, and the trainer was brilliant with him, showing him what was needed etc, actually got on the bike with him, David loved every minute of it I don't think I had ever seen him enjoy anything as much, on the second visit the improvement in David's riding was amazing.
On the 3rd visit David had a road ride, made 3 mistakes, and the trainer said "1st time nerves, we will get him back in asap and get him through, his riding is very good and he listens and learns well"
we were really lucky, they phoned the next day and had David straight back due to a cancellation, The trainer said "he had a perfect road ride I have no problem in giving him his certificate, he is a good rider and has been a pleasure to teach"

well boys and girls sorry this is so long winded but what do you all think???

Is this disability discrimination by North eastern motor cycle training?
Should I ask North-eastern motorcycle training for my money back considering I paid them £120.00 for a total of 7.5 hours training ?
Should I take this further i.e. to the local council for disability discrimination as now he has passed and is very good on the bike and road ( all it took was a little time and patience)?

Anyway thanks to Train To Ride at Southbank They were superb and we would strongly recommend them !!!!

[wheelnut]

I don't think you'll get anywhere with the discrimination aspect. It comes down to opinions, and in the first trainer's opinion he was unable to control the bike properly due to a disability.

I agree that his opinion may have been wrong, but you could look at it like this. If he signs David off and David has an accident, an investigation may have concluded that he shouldn't have been riding in the first place. That will then come back on the ATB that signed the dl196. They may not have been willing to take that risk and that is their right.

You probably won't have a case for a refund. If you decided to go to a small claims court I can see their argument being 'We agreed to train david, but after an extended period of training it became apparant that david was struggling too much due to his disabilty and we felt it best to call a halt to david's training'.

Chalk it down to experience and just be pleased that he got there in the end.

[wheelnut]

ps. is north eastern the one based at cowpen ind est in billingham?

[tonybbird]

Hi Wheelnut

The argument is that with a little extra time that Train to Ride gave David his riding ability developed to the point where he is clearly safe on the road..

North eastern could of said that they were unwilling or unequipped to train david but only giving him 7.5 hours and then just fobbing us off, instead of saying their position was appalling. This indicates they were discriminating against him because of his disability. This is also clear when you look at what his second training session was...

As far as i am concerned had the boss called me back after i had requested it, he could of explained his position and the matter would have been resolved. Again if its not discrimanation 1. Why didnt he call me. 2. How is it that he has passed now.

[maverick]

You could try here

www.dsa.gov.uk/Category.asp?cat=664

As i would think they would come under the same controls as Driving instructers, maybe their skills need reaccessing.

[tonybbird]

Hi

yes they were at Cowpen lane but are now at Portrack Lane Stockton

[wheelnut]

I can't speak for NE, just putting how it would look from an impartial point of view.

I agree that, going by what you have said, they appear to have acted shittily.

Just reread your post and it appears that they didn't refuse training due to a disabilty, just ended up mucking you about so much that you took your business elsewhere.

Did you actually pay the £80 for the training session that got cancelled?

[tonybbird]

I didnt pay the £80 just the £120 initial payment and they told us this would be the only charge to get him through his CBT. But at the initial stage i made it quite clear that he did have a disability and i thought it would take more than normal to get him through and if they thought that he required additional lessons i was very eager to pay for professional training.

[wheelnut]

So you paid £120 for a day's training. The training wasn't very good or david struggled so they told him to go away and practice. They then indicated they didn't want him back by their failure to adhere to a lesson booking.

He then went to a second ATB, who after the extra training you gave him, signed him off.

As I say, I don't think you have any redress. If you have, it will be that the quality of the training wasn't up to scratch and not fit for purpose. That however, will be very difficult to prove.

It miht be worth expressing your concerns to the DSA, they regulate ATBs pretty closely and yours may not be the only complaint.

[Lee]

as per our phone call, i would write in and state politely that you are unhappy with what has happened. Requesting some form of refund (dont expect all of it back).
if they fob you off or dont respond within a reasonable amount of time, anothr letter stating further dissappointment and that you will be writing to the DSA, MCE and the Local press.

Its bad PR for them either way. The fact that someone else managed to train David to a recognised standard means that he is capable. In your defence you DID inform them of David's disability before training commenced... Write a letter, its only the price of a stamp.

[tonybbird]

Hi Gang

Thanks for all the quality comments and laughs
this is not about the money, although i definatley think they should not have it
i'm more concerned that it could happen to someone else not has determined as David and put them off for life

[flagman]

Just like to add something that I think is rather important.........



CONGRATULATIONS DAVID

[tonybbird]

Hi Gang have not made a final decision yet but this is what i'm thinking

1. dont want to damage the guys business, but do feel very strongly that what they did was out of order.

2. Dont think i can leave it stand without doin something, as i could not live with the possibilty of them doin it to someone else who may not have Davids determination and family support.

I think at the very least They will get a letter of complaint, i dont care about the money, but if i get a refund in full or part that would be nice. but more importantly some sort of aknowlegment that what they did was wrong, and they are taking steps to rectify, the failing would be the best result and then i could walk away from it very happy.

[teedee]

Hey tony.... If you decide to write a letter to them , mention that you have asked friends on the teesside bikers site and the zedoc site for their opinions , and let them view the opinions of 'the biking community' as the majority of opinions support you and David.... it may influence their decision as to what to do next !

[wheelnut]

Nov 14, 2009 23:45:57 GMT tonybbird said:

I think at the very least They will get a letter of complaint, i dont care about the money, but if i get a refund in full or part that would be nice. but more importantly some sort of aknowlegment that what they did was wrong, and they are taking steps to rectify, the failing would be the best result and then i could walk away from it very happy.

Let us know if they reply.

[tonybbird]

Hi Guys

never actually took it any further decided i couldnt be bothered with them at N Eastern,

took David back to Train To Ride after he passed his Theory test
They got him straight thru his Mod 1 & 2 passed on friday last week

another recomendation for Train To Ride

;D ;D ;D